Monday, September 3, 2007

Kesubos 2b Tosfos s.v. pashit

Tosfos s.v. Pashit writes that the Rashbam is of the opinion that Rav Achai mentioned in the Gemara here is Rav Achai Gaon, the author of the Sheiltos. For this reason Rav Achai employs unique terminology throughout the Talmud. Examples of the unique terminologies are parich Rav Achai, parish Rav Acahai. Rabbeinu Tam, however, disagrees with the Rashbam, because Rav Ashi is the one who responds to Rav Achai. Rabbeinu Tam apparently understood that Rav Ashi and Rav Acahai did not live in the same era.

I was wondering if it was possible to say in defense of the Rashbam that Rav Ashi was elderly when Rav Achai lived and thus Rav Ashi was responding to the younger Rav Acahai.


H. B. said...

What does Seder HaDoros say?

Anonymous said...

Good question. Sefer Toldos HaTanaaim VeAmoraim says that Tosfos' question is not a question because Rav Ashi is not responding to Rav Achai. Rather, he is one of the authors of the Talmud. See there further for how the author sides with the Rashbam.

Netziv said...

The STH"V that you cited is not citing with the Rashbam; Rashbam says that Rav Achai was from the Geonim.

re to your original post: Do you realize that Rav Ashi died in 4180 or 4182 and the period of the Gaonim did not commence until 4349? It would make your hypothesis kind of improbable.

Anonymous said...

Netziv: did you see Toldos inside? he says explicitly that he favors Rashbam. look there where he posits there's a mistake in Rashbam. I realzie that Geonim are much later and that's why Toldos also has to come up with taus sofer in Rashbam. He also says there were two Rav Achais.

Anonymous said...

Seder Hadoros is not machria. Interestingly enough, prior to that he takes issue withe Tosfos regarding Rav Acha and Ravina.

S.B. said...

I don't understand your last comment regarding seder hadoros.

Also, you are not explaining your original post; based on the years, that cannot be correct.

It should be noted that some say that the Sheiltos, which was written by Rav Achai Gaon was really in the times of Rabbanan Savarai; Tosfos in Zevachim like that.

Also, Arizal in Shaar Hagiglgulim says that Parich Rav Achai is from the Rabbanan Savarai and he concludes "shehi mishoresh elyon." I don't know what that means.

Anonymous said...

Seder Hadoros does not take sides

I regret my original question. I was told by a big talmid chacham (And Toldos Tanaaim VeAmoraim indicates this) that either Rashbam made a mistake or there's a taus. I was hoping to defend Rashbam's wording (according to Tosfos) but alas it cannot be.

I think we should wrap this post up and move on. Yasher koach to everyone who participated.

Avromi said...

The Mahari (mechaber of Sheilas Shalom) in his introduction to the shiltos cites this Tosfos. He comments that Tosfos could have asked from Gemora Niddah 33a where Rav Assi who lived years before Rav Ashi asked on Rav Achai; how can he be Rav Achai Gaon.

However, to save the Rashbam's pshat he explains according to Tosfos in chulin who states that although it sounds from the Gemora that Rav Ashi asked a certain question, that is true, but Abaye and Rava, who lived many years before are answering that question; perhaps, says Tosfos, that the same question was asked in Abaye and Rava's times and they answered it. This is the style of the Gemora. So too, we can say here according to the Rashbam: While it's true that Rav Achai Gaon asked this question, it was also asked in the times of Rav Ashi, and Rav Ashi is responding to that question.